tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post4342967149900259183..comments2023-04-22T17:33:19.244-07:00Comments on flower sneezing in the spring air: Breaking the Quaker Code of Silenceforresthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13861950371962268402noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-77979992697690806942008-03-30T00:49:00.000-07:002008-03-30T00:49:00.000-07:00crazycrazyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-89832253685885063502007-05-26T08:18:00.000-07:002007-05-26T08:18:00.000-07:00Yes, I distrust the word "humility" more than what...Yes, I distrust the word "humility" more than what I think it actually means, because people are confused by the word. I do see an actual virtue behind the idol, a virtue which I'd consider a side-effect of "honesty"--but the idol is far more impressive (& much less humble.)<BR/><BR/>It is not a virtue to be insecure, whether this leads to "humility" or "arrogance."<BR/><BR/>Neither is doubt a virtue, although it is certainly proper whenever an issue is truly in doubt.<BR/><BR/>And lack of faith, in anything which deserves faith, is simply another affliction we'd be better off without--no blame, no praise.<BR/><BR/>I don't submit this humbly, but I am doing my best to give "humility" its due, with proper doubts about my doubts about it, and proper allowance for this having become personal between us...<BR/><BR/>Can you know that the essence of you is God, and still be "humble"? Conversely, can you know how far short you are of God's wisdom, and dare to call yourself "humble"?<BR/><BR/>By the way... any interest in the blog I'm hoping to startup at http://acitycanbemoved.blogspot.com/<BR/>?forresthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214745625847174676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-41782179849211450552007-05-26T07:19:00.000-07:002007-05-26T07:19:00.000-07:00I humbly submit that we may be defineing humbly in...I humbly submit that we may be defineing humbly in different ways. When I use 'humble' it is generally in opposiition to 'arrogant'. Arrogance may be the root cause of war. It is unwise for us humans to be too sure (arrogantly sure) of anything. So let's speak truth (as we see it) to power, but let's stay open to the possiblilty that we be in the ditch upside down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-79742816927766882822007-05-24T13:44:00.000-07:002007-05-24T13:44:00.000-07:00Forrest, I appreciate your confession very much; t...Forrest, I appreciate your confession very much; this is the kind of "spiritual sharing" that I long for; in the Quaker meeting or elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>I do find such long messages put a strain on my span of consciousness.<BR/><BR/>Re Quaker silence: I've deplored it in the 24 years I've been committed to the meeting, but I understand it. <BR/><BR/>IMO most people simple don't have the courage. Coming from conventional religion, as most of us are, we learned an emphatic lesson to be quiet and listen.<BR/><BR/>Fox violated that in the "steeple houses". <BR/><BR/>Messengers are made through encouragement.<BR/><BR/>A Friend of many years, one of the weightiest Friends I've known, said once that he wasn't sure he had ever heard a message from God.<BR/><BR/>I understand that, too. One cannot speak without fear and trembling, and when he does he may wonder it he was wise or a fool. That's the liability most people take care to avoid. <BR/><BR/>By the way: I've now spent a half hour of my precious four on this item. No regrets.Larry Claytonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11571190213288384302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-49347847057132530082007-05-07T14:57:00.000-07:002007-05-07T14:57:00.000-07:00Humility is what we donkeys do best!But if we can ...Humility is what we donkeys do best!<BR/><BR/>But if we can achieve accuracy about ourselves, where does "humility" come in?<BR/><BR/>Why should we take our personal selves so seriously--as to strive for the sort of condition that people describe as "humility"? Or "pride," either?<BR/><BR/>Inevitably we're going to form some sort of self-evaluation. If we set that too high, reality will be along to correct us soon enough. Too low, and we're tempted to hide our light--and will probably take pride in how humble this must make us.<BR/><BR/>How about we just pray for greater wisdom, and to know God better? If we see our true relation to God, it's absurd to think poorly of ourselves--while we recognize any virtues we claim, even "humility", as only borrowed clothes, so long as we try to wear them.<BR/><BR/>I make mistakes too, of course. And sometimes come to see things better than some previous certainty.<BR/><BR/>The other side of this... My wife Anne and I were on our way to a civil-disobedience demonstration that was as clear a case of a leading as I've ever experienced. But there was no time to ask the Meeting for a clearness committee; we were on our way there. We jokingly agree to be each other's committee. "Does God want you to do it?" she asked. (Sure.) "Does the Devil want you to do it?" (Yes, but he wants me to enjoy it too much!) Did the demonstration itself "accomplish" anything? Aside from getting us condemned by a jury of our peers and getting us three years probation, no. But it was a beautiful event, a chance to publicly say the truth about a governmental crime that had been unchallenged for years, and one where some homeless friends of ours took a stand in a far more peaceful and dignified way than I'd ever seen in them. I can't ever know the full results of any action, but this one was right, and doubting that unnecessarily would not have improved it.forresthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214745625847174676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-53044674832712865802007-05-07T09:33:00.000-07:002007-05-07T09:33:00.000-07:00forrest, how can anyone be too humble? Being humb...forrest, how can anyone be too humble? Being humble does not exclude 'braying' (humbly, of course)! I must speak what I understand to be the truth, but I feel compelled to keep my 'understanding' flexible (because there have been so many times in my life when I was sure that I was sure, only to realize that I wasn't really sure!)<BR/>marshall - That's why I hold the reigns on 'being sure'! I must bray, but I must bray humbly!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-36930246463722574382007-05-01T06:10:00.000-07:002007-05-01T06:10:00.000-07:00I find I'm not comfortable with rex's statement th...I find I'm not comfortable with rex's statement that we should "<I>'break the silence' whenever we think we are moved to speak from our own understanding of our common reality</I>".<BR/><BR/>Just <I>thinking</I> we are moved to speak is no more an adequate justification for interrupting other people's time of worship, than just <I>thinking</I> we have a use for money is an adequate excuse for grabbing at their wallets. We need a better justification for standing to speak than our own thinking alone can provide.<BR/><BR/>Also, "our own understanding of our common reality" is something quite different from a message from the Spirit of Christ. God's promptings within us may in fact <I>contradict</I> our own understandings of our common reality; many Friends have experienced this happening. But Quaker ministry is supposed to be limited to messages from the Spirit, and not extend to messages from our own understandings.<BR/><BR/>Now, on the dialogue between Liz and forrest:<BR/><BR/>Liz wrote of the "<I>senior Friend who said, 'Why do we have to deepen as a community?! We're <B>fine</B>.</I>" forrest responded, "<I>If we talk about 'deepening community', we'll need a translator for people who don't find the phrase as meaningful and compelling as we might.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Let me point out that, within the Quaker world, the responsibility always rests upon the person who doesn't understand another's message to ask for clarification. Thus, Liz's "senior Friend" had a responsibility not to resist the call for "deepening community" until she had first asked what, specifically, the person issuing the call felt was needed. By not asking, but instead arbitrarily declaring that "we're fine", she obstructed the way forward. This was contrary to Gospel order (specifically, to Matthew 5:23-24), and was a real wrong done to the community.<BR/><BR/>Since the "senior Friend" failed in this way, the responsibility then lay with those around her (Liz included) to straighten the process out, by intervening as witnesses to ask the essential clarifying questions of both sides. In particular, they had a responsibility, not only to ask the caller to explain what, specifically, was needed, but also to ask the senior Friend why, specifically, she had said "we're fine" and cut off a discussion of whatever it was the caller perceived as problems.<BR/><BR/>The questions would naturally need to be posed tenderly and with patience. And it might be necessary to question the senior Friend in private, since her resistance might stem from a fear that certain things would be made public. (This is something worth thinking carefully about!) It might also take more than one meeting to get past the senior Friend's resistance. But all this too is Gospel order: it's implicit in Matthew 18:16, where Christ speaks of the necessary rôle of <I>witnesses</I> in establishing truth and effecting reconciliation.<BR/><BR/>I personally believe it's important to recognize that the kind of close-knit community that forrest speaks of in his answering comment, and RichardM affirms, cannot be created simply by demanding it of people. It can only arise on a basis of mutual trust and confidence, mutual opening-up to one another, and demonstrations on all sides that people are holding themselves fully accountable to one another. To get there, from the condition in which most Americans are at the time they first convert to liberal Quakerism, takes a lot of time, patience, gentleness, and positive guidance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-62682423429992706692007-04-30T17:36:00.000-07:002007-04-30T17:36:00.000-07:00forrest,This code of silence you talk about is stu...forrest,<BR/><BR/>This code of silence you talk about is stupid and since you see that you are being called to help people to do away with it. It doesn't exist everywhere. In North Carolina there are still enough members who grew up in the sort of community you talk about where it was just normal to care for each other. Given their experience and their status as weighty Friends a number of us who live in places where the norm is the isolation of the pursuit individual accomplishment and gratification have seen at least glimpses of another way to live. So real open talk is not unusual among the Friends in NC-conservative who regularly attend YM. And these YM Friends have an influence on their monthly meetings by bringing at least a little of this back with them. <BR/><BR/>Since you see the problem clearly; be the answer. If you stick with it, others will follow eventually.RichardMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08564152237574253857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-76097630230216654322007-04-30T13:04:00.000-07:002007-04-30T13:04:00.000-07:00Rex--You sound too humble. Commentary on a Line Fr...Rex--You sound too humble. <BR/><BR/><B>Commentary on a Line From Rumi</B><BR/>Cut!Don't pretend<BR/>even for an instant!"Cut<BR/>modesty's throat<BR/>with a knife!"<BR/><BR/>Don't be<BR/>humble!You can't be<BR/>nearly humble enough!<BR/><BR/>Don't pretend<BR/>when you know<BR/>It is God's truth<BR/>you are given!<BR/>Proclaim it!<BR/><BR/>The Lord has need<BR/>of a donkey,<BR/>the child<BR/>of a donkey.<BR/><BR/>Bray!<BR/><BR/><I>Forrest Curo (December 2002)</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not saying you're not right; in fact I know we need to do something very like what you're saying. But not quite.<BR/><BR/>People lie. They lie to others and they lie to themselves. They want respect for all their silly idols, and we can't necessarily provide that, nor should we try. What we need to respect instead is that wretched little appetite for truth struggling in everyone's beady little mind.<BR/><BR/>"Subject to revision and reinterpretation" is not the same as "uncertain." When we get to Liberalquakerist Heaven, must it be a continual state of bewilderment? Why can't we just be certain when we're certain, confused when we're confused, open to argument (when we don't see someone just blatantly running a fog-machine on us) and go on knowing when we in fact know?<BR/><BR/>Liz--"Faithfulness" is a lot to claim. I didn't even describe that message precisely right here; the error was in choosing a habitual phrase, where "mainly said" would be more accurate than "simply said."<BR/><BR/>If we talk about "deepening community", we'll need a translator for people who don't find the phrase as meaningful and compelling as we might.<BR/><BR/>In a class on Quaker History at Pendle Hill, the teacher talked about places where people settled because they could make it from there to meeting and back within a day. If someone in the meeting had a calling to go off and convert the Turks, other members would not just need to confirm the leading; they would be raising the children until she got back. More frequently, members simply died of healthy rural life, and someone else in the meeting would take that on. If you'd asked one of these people what "community" meant they would have given you a blank stare.<BR/><BR/>It's fairly obvious we don't have that. We need more of it, this thing which is very scarce among modern USians, a thing we haven't been acculturated to want or recognize.<BR/><BR/>A rabbi could tell you, "Cain was not cursed for killing his brother. Cain was cursed because he said, 'Am I my brother's keeper?' "forresthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214745625847174676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-5980928751234177362007-04-28T15:44:00.000-07:002007-04-28T15:44:00.000-07:00Forrest, it sounds as if you are being faithful, s...Forrest, it sounds as if you are being faithful, simply because you aren't rushing to "fix" the situation the meeting faces.<BR/><BR/>I find hope in what you write: <I>"The value of preparing the report is to bring a meeting's attention to its situation. Doing this, we've also agreed to continue examining and working on the divisions between us."</I><BR/><BR/>When my own monthly meeting named a similar split that existed--<I>"Our meeting is just fine, so please shut up!" vs "We wouldn't know a ‘spiritual condition' if it bit us!"</I>--we became immobilized, as I see it, in part because there was at least one senior Friend who said, "Why do we have to deepen as a community?! We're <I><B>fine.</B></I>" [my paraphrase] I knew I myself wasn't expecting a statement like that from a long-time member...<BR/><BR/>As a meeting, we've never looked back but we haven't listened openly or talked lovingly with each other either.<BR/><BR/>I will have to sit with your words a while longer to see what other fruit there might be for me...<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Liz Opp, <A HREF="http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">The Good Raised Up</A>Liz Opphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09802348848085930901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-85158235095870353782007-04-28T15:10:00.000-07:002007-04-28T15:10:00.000-07:00Thanks for these thoughts.What grabbed ny heart we...Thanks for these thoughts.<BR/><BR/>What grabbed ny heart were these words:<BR/><BR/>or have we been practicing a sort of spiritual stinginess that leads to us receiving little?<BR/><BR/>My instinct is that this may well be what is going on at a number of meetings I visit. <BR/><BR/>Your observations on mystery and paradox were also helpful. Many have elevated the intellect to the position of gatekeeper, to the point, perhaps, of the apostasy of which George Fox spoke in his day.<BR/><BR/>May you continue to be blessed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-7445173084244564922007-04-28T08:46:00.000-07:002007-04-28T08:46:00.000-07:00To me silence is more a 'mode' than a 'code'. Beca...To me silence is more a 'mode' than a 'code'. Because of our human limitations we <I>need</I> to talk to each other. Our perceptions of our common reality (God) become more reliable <I>only</I> when they are confirmed by futher experience & it doesn't matter whether that experience is our own or whether it is our understanding of someone else's experience. But we mustn't forget that <B>even confirmed experiences may not be totally reliable!</B><BR/><I>Uncertainty</I> is (should be) our life-long mental state! So let's 'break the silence' whenever we think we are moved to speak from our own understanding of our common reality, but never break the code of 'respectful listening'!! <BR/>Humble, honest speaking & humble, honest listening is what corporate 'worship' is all about (to me)! And of course generous dollops of silence are a part of all that!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-79801491664835220852007-04-28T05:50:00.000-07:002007-04-28T05:50:00.000-07:00This is a wonderful essay - there is much food for...This is a wonderful essay - there is much food for thought here. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33242988.post-19494919410061844262007-04-28T04:35:00.000-07:002007-04-28T04:35:00.000-07:00An absolutely splendid essay, friend!I quite agree...An absolutely splendid essay, friend!<BR/><BR/>I quite agree with your statement that "<I>there's no 'corporate worship' unless we parts of the body go into worship ourselves,</I>" although my own experience of that truth seems to be a little bit different from yours. I experience the Presence in the Midst as, at least sometimes, a very powerful thing, and qualitatively different from the experiences of God I have on my own. But it does not manifest to me unless at least two of us in the room go really deep, very humbly, in worship. And the more of us go deep, and humbly, the more powerfully the Presence manifests.<BR/><BR/>Your ministry last week sounds to me like true ministry indeed -- for whatever little bit that may be worth. And your reflections on it did <I>me</I> some good!<BR/><BR/>Thank you for sharing this. I've been carrying it with me in my heart.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com